and there's no better example of that than someone i completely disagree with, mayor rudy giuliani during 9/11 who went down there and did the right thing in many ways that helped a lot of people and guided them through it. so i just -- i kind of think the talk about the silliness between the governors and the president and the mayors and the president is wrong. there are political motivations, they should be ashamed of themselves. >> i felt that in 2004 when ivan came and tore through pensacola, florida, with jeb bush. you know, tom, this leadership thing is something that you don't get in a resume. you see it. jeb bush had it in florida in 2004. and to be really blunt, his brother as well as the governor of louisiana and the mayor of new orleans did not have it in 2005. this is when people need comforting. >> yeah. it's an instinct. on the other hand, george bush 43 had his best moment, i always thought, at ground zero when he put his arm around that fireman that day and said, "i can hear you, and they're going to be hearing you in other parts of the world." that was enormous symbolism